I was recently invited to be one of the first guests on the podcast Making It: The Business of Making & Selling Products, started by the wonderful Danielle A. Vincent, cofounder of scent company Outlaw. Here is an edited transcript of our interview. 

Full audio transcript below.

Danielle: Can you give us a quick snapshot of your journey?

Talie: In any journey, especially an entrepreneurial one, there are key moments where you hit a roadblock. For me, it started in 2018 to 2019. We were starting to have some real success, bigger clients, a bigger team. We had to rent a space, and all of a sudden, we have all this overhead and pressure. In those days, I could sense some alarm bells starting to go off where not everything was working really well. We didn't know how to do some stuff. Of course, when the pandemic hit in 2020, it really became a moment of truth, as for so many people and so many businesses. For us, it became screeching alarm bells. It was an exceptionally difficult time for us because it caught us like deer in headlights as founders and leaders. We had a team that really wanted to be able to rely on us to get through that, but we were really not sure how to do that.

Danielle: Do you think that [the leadership issues] were there when you were you were expanding, but there wasn't a crisis to brush away that surface dirt?

Talie: I think it was easier to just try to keep dodging the [problems] when you're in the midst of those ups and downs. I think we needed a complete reboot. We ended up having to do that by virtue of the pandemic, which at the time felt like death for the business and maybe personally a little bit inside. But I think it's like one of those things where something's not right, but you don't really want to face it until you absolutely have to. I was ashamed when I realized that, boy, we needed to make these changes a long time ago and make some real clear admissions to failure. But we just didn't have it in us to do it soon enough.

Danielle: What led you to the expansion in the first place?

Talie: I think in any endeavor, it's the process of never taking no for an answer. It's never seeing it as failure. I look around me and all my entrepreneur friends, and colleagues are there because they decided, even when they didn't know how to do something, even when they went bankrupt, even when one business failed, [to get] back up and continue to pursue their passion. There are millions of agencies doing the same things that we provide service on. Why do we get to keep going? It's because we decide that's what we're going to do. We're never going to stop. We're going to continue to get up and brush off the dust. I remember when we first started and we got our first big client and we were, Scott and I were working at our dining room table, hosting Nike and this big foundation, Meyer Memorial Trust, at our home at a time when remote was not a thing. But they wanted to work with us because we could see them. We got them. It's because of us, right? [At the time], I couldn't believe that I got those projects. I was like, why are they trusting us? Ultimately, it's a process of just continuing to build on your own belief system about what you do. It is true that I had to fake a lot of stuff and rely on my instincts to be able to actually step up to the plate when I was given the chance.

Danielle: The world is not crafted by reasonable people. Entrepreneurs are unreasonable, right? We just have this way of looking at things that's almost a reality distortion field. It's literally insane because we can see things that aren't there, but that's what entrepreneurs do. That's how it happens.

Talie: I spent many of the first years of the first decade [of Smith & Connors] being pissed at myself for being an entrepreneur because it was so hard. I was just like, why do I have to want to do this? Why? Why can't I just get a job and just take it easy? I had to break shit and go to the next summit and jump off the next cliff. But every single time there was so much pain involved and also an amazing amount of growth and confidence building. But I finally have accepted that I cannot ever be anything else. I think self-acceptance, that has been a huge part of my journey to this point.

Danielle: So what was the catalyst moment when you realized that the way that you were showing up in business wasn't working for the business and wasn't working for you personally?

Talie: It actually happened at the end of 2019, when I really had a clear picture that my belief system — how I saw myself in the world — was in direct opposition to the business being successful. I could see that I was the problem. I've been in therapy a long time. I had a difficult relationship with my mother, who had suffered a lot of mental health issues. I went through a lot of trauma with her from my childhood all the way up until the moment that I'm talking about. It was pretty brutal. What I realized was — through all the therapy — discovering what that trauma did to me and how I had started to embody it in my own narratives and my own vision of things. It became really clear that her narratives and the ideas that she had planted in me were really poisonous to my life. Your business shows you where you're stuck. I just kept seeing the same wall come up to me. It was like a mirror that was saying, you can't go any further than this because this is how you see things and how you see yourself. Having a business actually accelerated my progress toward understanding the block. Because when you have a bottom line and teammates and employees and clients coming and showing you the same cards and going, Hello, are you done with this card yet, or are you ready to rise up? There was just nowhere left to go except inward.

On New Year's Day in 2020, I were doing a visioning session with my family, my girls and my husband [and we asked]: What do we want for 2020? And I just wrote, I want to change my belief about me. And I just made the decision and I put the sticky note up. That decision was really powerful. I think when we make a decision like that, there's actually an energetic thing that shifts, that just starts to propel us forward toward it. And that's exactly what happened in 2020.

Danielle: Was it about self-belief or was it like, what was the way that you wanted to show up that was different from how you had been?

Talie: Yeah, it comes down to something super simple. I think most people can identify with, which is I didn't believe that I was worthy, that I was smart enough, resourceful enough, capable enough to be successful in this world. I had been hampered by my anxieties and traumas and all of that. It was self-worth stuff. I was looking in the wrong direction for the truth, which I actually mean to say, I was looking out there for validation and people and numbers and things that would tell me I'm OK. I knew that I had to shift it to looking down inside of myself and say, that's the source, but I can't quite see it or feel it or touch it or believe it.

Danielle: Oh, that's really interesting, because I've always thought of the remedy for [imposter syndrome] is stats. I always turn to stats when I'm like, look, I am good: my views, my conversion rate, my click-through rate, my traction, everything. But that actually doesn't address the inside part. Then it leaves quite a crumbling castle, right, not a foundation.

Talie: Bingo. The numbers and all of that, it just doesn't matter. In other words, it does matter ultimately, but it's a symptom of a right alignment inside. I look at it as this: Turn inward, work there. The outward will all be taken care of if this is worked out inside. I could chip away all these things on my business, on my body, my athleticness, my whatever, parenting. I could try to fix all that shit, but it was never going to freaking stick if the root, which goes straight into my soul and heart and mind was [not healthy].

So I decided to go into those root systems and literally reroute. And so I did that with a psychedelic journey. That was the beginning of it. Like a good entrepreneur, I was going to go find the biggest summit and leap off of it into the very darkest depths and say, what is my deepest trauma, my deepest pain? Let me finally for once and for all, see it, clear it, reestablish new roots. And I did that. It was terrifying.

I said this to myself over and over, I was like, I could spend the rest of my life incrementally feeling all this pain and it blocking every single thing I want in my life to go well. Or let me just be efficient about this and let's get to it and get beyond it. And that is exactly what I did.

Danielle: How did you find the internal fortitude to do that? And how did the people around you react when you showed up differently? I think a lot of people [worry]: What if I'm not the same person?

Talie: The whole game is about fear, right? I got to a point where it was so excruciating for me to live day to day, seeing my block, my blocks just in front of me. I could not move forward, could not be successful. The universe does a funny thing when you're not in right alignment with yourself. It just throws roadblocks up everywhere. It's like anti-flow.

Danielle: Some people interpret those as failures. Many people go this isn't working out, and then they back away from it, but you leaned into it.

Talie: I like to lean right into my fears because I can see that they're in my way. Pema Chodron, in her book When Things Fall Apart says that we are warriors who free fall into the dark and truly face our fears, and then we are free.

That was a very alluring thing for me. I climbed Mount Kilimanjaro when I was 14. I've done very big things since I was a child. I have been entrepreneurial always and always looking to expand. This was just my new version of it. I knew that my potentiality was being really stifled in my life, and I was just so tired of not feeling like I could be myself. Going into those dark, scary corners to see them and abolish them seemed like the biggest journey, the most incredibly courageous thing I could do. As soon as I made the decision, guides and teachers, friends, books started showing up.

I think when we make the right decision, the courageous decision — I like to call it the universe because that's just my term for it — all of a sudden the energy systems shift and you're given this yes. So I didn't do this alone.

This was a very grueling experience, excruciating, terrible, scary, awful. It was a very sudden spiritual awakening that happened for me. I don't think that's the same for a lot of people. Some people have that maybe. My experience was extraordinarily dramatic. Right after that, once I shifted, people did notice it. The world, the universe, every single thing in the world changed for me in an instant. It was metaphysical. But what [people] saw, though, was not some new person.

Danielle: I love that. They saw you.

Talie: They saw me — I saw me! I remember I would get together with somebody that I hadn't seen in a while, and they said, Oh my God, Talie, your energy is unbelievable. Or they would just be in awe because it was so clear that all the pain had dissolved. It was incredible.

Danielle: I love that your family and that everybody around you saw you, and you were revealed to yourself.

Talie: I revealed myself. And what I think was interesting was I literally felt it, Danielle. I shifted my perspective. I turned. And all of a sudden, I literally saw everything anew, and everything saw me anew. And there was like this almost alignment, that shimmery alignment, feeling like a Disney moment with the sparkles everywhere. That's the flow, right? That's like being in the flow with the universe and the universe being like, Okay, you're here. I was raised by a mother who instilled really difficult things that embedded these narratives. When I overcame that and decided to move toward love and compassion and really honoring who I am, the universe really celebrates that. It's like everything from that moment on has been flow.

I subscribe to Buddhist principles. I am Jewish as well, but I wasn't raised with that as strongly. But I do practice Buddhism. I believe that when we allow ourselves to be ourselves — and so many of us don't because society has lots of problems around narratives about who we're supposed to be and how we're supposed to look and all the things — I do feel that becomes an alignment that is rewarded.

I do believe that we're all in this life facing one main challenge that we need to overcome. So if we're given a pretty bad hand and a lot of trauma or whatever the combination of pain and challenge that we're given, if we can transmute that into compassion and love and joy, then we get even larger abundance of goodness and flow. I see it in my life. I see it every day now that I'm in the right alignment, but I also see it in others.

I see it in others' stories. People who we look up to, Oprah Winfrey would be a great example. Here's a woman who went through incredible traumas and incredible, just awful young life, right? Rape and poverty and over again, all these terrible things. She continues to evolve and grow her ability to generate more and more love and compassion. When she gets bad stuff coming at her, she doesn't reflect that bad stuff back out. She takes that, transmutes it into love and joy, and puts it back out in that signal. Look at what she's been able to do, but it's because of her. It's because she has made that decision, and she's committed to it.

Danielle: She's an alchemist.

Talie: She's an alchemist. We all are. When I read all my Buddhist books, which I do every single day, that is literally the game. That's what we're supposed to do. And as we do it, we get so much abundance back, so much goodness.

Danielle: Was that an ongoing shift or change, or did you just resolve and then start being different?

Talie: I love that question, because I get where you're getting at there. Was this a slow evolution? Did this just shift? And what is it like now, years later? For me, it was a sudden shift, and it was because of how dramatically I went to do this work. It was one minute it was like this, and the next minute I was transformed, metaphysically.

Danielle: You were like, I'm dropping that bag. I'm going over here.

Talie: Yes. And I felt the shift. However, the ongoing game is, now I'm constantly testing my faith and belief, because as human beings, we just fall into doubt. It's just a natural thing. I'm human. Everybody's human, right? We do that. So, yes, there's a practice that I have. I literally have a stack of Buddhist books next to my bed, and that is all I look at every night. I don't read anything else. I know it's crazy. I was an English major, but I'm in very much a practice right now of how expansive can I get? How far along the path to enlightenment can I get in this lifetime? I'm so dedicated to it. I have a list of affirmations that I say every day to myself that starts with, I am the generator of infinite light and energy. I am the source of limitless flow, no matter what happens around me. My purpose is to be of use to those who need my loving support, starting with me. I can do good and do well without sacrifice. That was an interesting one to write.

Danielle: One of the things I'm exploring is the idea that the unique gifts that I have are actually my form of play and my form of recreation. So they don't have to be like, oh, am I over-committing? Because who over-commits to the things that they love, right? There's no over-committing to that. You do it until you don't want to do it anymore and then you're not doing it.

Talie: My really good friend, Darcy Cameron, who was in EO for a decade, she's all about — the universe wants me to enjoy myself. And when I am happy and enjoy myself, goodness continues to come. And I have to say, it's so true. I don't think the universe wants us to struggle. I think that our culture, this Puritan, weird culture says that we need to draw blood to get good. No! We need to rewire that. That's bullshit. That is such bullshit. That is literally a culture that wants us to work ourselves to the bone to earn our dessert or our dinner.

I think we are we as human beings are already deserving of every good thing. There's so much abundance of love and everything out there. Anything that we need. I think that's the shift that I had to make scarcity to abundance. And just being me is enough. That's where I'm reaching at now. I went from am I worthy to can I just be and that's enough? And guess what? Yes.

Danielle: I always feel like, OK, this is too easy. And also you can cherry pick examples. We're talking and I wanted to talk to you specifically because you've experienced this clear difference. You were, you know, your business was scorched earth and you were in the ashes. And now it's not that. Can you tell me what happened once you made this shift and showed up differently in a
way that was not punitive to who you are?

Talie: Yes. So. The moment in February 2021, when I. Made this metaphysical perspective shift. 2020 or 2021, was it? 2021. It was when it actually shifted. OK, so it took time. Took a year and a month. So, OK. Yeah. From the decision moment to the awakening. OK. That day when I had the shift happen, it was so overwhelming. Spiritually, that I was vibrating, trembling. I was not. I was like partially not on this physical plane. I went to the bathroom and I put my arms up in the mirror and I just said. I get it. I said, I understand. I will now go forth in right alignment with this purpose.

And here's my ask to the universe. I said, I need to stop having to look down to see if I have enough to stand on. I'm sick of. I can't have financial scarcity. I can't be worried about my basic needs. I said, so that's number one. And then I will pick my head up, look out and walk forward. The rest of my life. Number two, I said, I need. We were like a hundred thousand in debt in the business. I had no clients. We had, I think one employee left. Everybody had left. It was the dust bowl. And we were in the ashes. And I just said, here's what I need. Show me the sign that this is all true. I said, and the sign has to come. In the form of clients with a lot of money and big names. Now think about this for the last six months, no clients, everything died down. We were basically flatlined the next day.

And the next few days of that week, we had a tidal wave of clients flow in. That was so overwhelming. One of whom was Berkeley national laboratory selected us. As their agency in this RFP process, which again, we're this small shop against all these other agencies. Why at that moment that next day and why 20 other clients come in a rush. Now you could say coincidence, but no, it wasn't.

Danielle: Okay. One or two, maybe coincidence, but 20 is not coincidence anymore.

Talie: And it just kept going after that. So I want to say, I know this sounds crazy, but my answer to you is like, what happened is I changed my perspective. Like we are powerful. We are energy forces. Our energy sends out signals, whether we like it or not. And if we are not aligned, not clear on what we are and what we're doing and what we want. We are going to get the results that we want. We're not going to get what we want. That is my literal story. I shifted how I saw and oriented myself to the world. And then things changed instantly. So I don't believe anymore that shit happens to me.

Okay. I take responsibility for the things that happen in my business, in my life. And I take action now. And now, literally, Daniel, I will write a vision board and like in a few weeks, that stuff's happening or a month. It's just what you see is what you get. If you are looking at something in a direction, you're going to get that direction. So be really careful about where you're turned.

Danielle: When you have alignment and certainty and you're not conflicted or looking down into the abyss and then looking up at the bridge, you can make things happen much faster than if you're creating a lot of confusion by playing boggle with your imagination. What you're talking about is really the clarity and the certainty and the confidence that opens up the reality. At least that's what I'm hearing.

Talie: I think it's a difference of feeling like we are the victim of the world around us, or are we the author of it? I am the author of my reality now.

Danielle: I've been exploring the concept of reality as self-expression because you are showing up with
your reality and then that's like the reality that you have, right?

Talie: I'm the creator of my reality. I saw my world change when I decided to change it. So now I know I can do it.
And now I just do it all the freaking time. Is that woo or whatever? Who gives a shit? If we can make it real, does it really even matter?

Danielle: No, if it works. It's what's helpful philosophy instead of destructive philosophy. And if it works, then it works.

Talie: And I watched Oprah do an interview with, oh, the Abbott Elementary writer, creator. Quinta Brunson. And it was so powerful to watch it because they basically were talking about how it's so much just your own belief system, your perspective. They were saying the exact same thing Oprah was saying. People question how she got where she is. It's because she decided to get there. That's why. Nobody did it for her. No forces in the universe just dropped that on her when she was a teenager or whatever. She freaking made a decision to create her reality and she continues to evolve it. And I can name millions of others that we watch, of course, doing this, but that's the difference. And so that's my game. I'm leveling up every day.

I'm excited about it. I'm also bringing along my employees, my daughters, my friends like you. I'm excited to just co-create this. I love it. I dare you. What are you going to do? How much higher can you punch? Let's break through what we think is even possible.

Danielle: That's awesome. Do you think that you could have come here from the beginning? Or do you think that the journey was part of it?

Talie: It's all about the journey. I know we want to leapfrog ahead, right?

Danielle: We don't want the mess because that's painful.

Talie: But that's actually, unfortunately, as we all know deep inside our hearts.

Danielle: So you just have to do it anyway.

Talie: We humans don't learn unless there's pain. It's just the way it is. It's the way we're built. We don't learn really important truths and growth unless there's pain. And I would say, looking back, I am so grateful to my previous self, or the self back then that decided to just say, I'm going to walk over these coals. I'm going to roll in the coals. I'm going to get all burnt. But I'm going to collect the people and the books and the words that I need to keep me buoyed.

I'm extraordinarily good at that. I'm extraordinarily good at building community and love around me because I'm very generous with my love also in return. But those people showed up and they fucking pulled me through. And those people include the Buddha, all the books I read about him, and many others.

It is the journey. I do think one way to leapfrog, though, and I'm not recommending it for everybody, but it worked for molds to psychedelics. In one day, one eight-hour journey, I resolved 45 years of trauma with my mother. And I was able to come out of that day feeling resolved, truly, and was able to see her through end of life with a pure, beautiful love and joy. And it was the most amazing gift to myself and to her.

Danielle: Oh, that's so great. So if people are just starting out and they're not necessarily the perfect beings, they probably should get doing it anyway because then they get to get there quicker.

Talie: I'd be curious about if some of this content sparks some curiosity. I think it's all about curiosity and figuring out where you want to dig into. There's a lot of interesting studies and methodologies and modalities for this sort of healing now, way more than ever before. And there's communities and there's guides.

I think looking at your belief systems and where a belief maybe is in the wrong place or a belief that you're ready to jettison is a really fascinating journey in and of itself. And I just think that's ultimately it. Are you living in a belief system that's actually serving you?

Danielle: Yeah. On that, thank you. This has been so cool. And so glad that we did this. I'm really glad that you came on. You're my first ever interview on this show, and it's just so delightful.